06 November 2009
22:18 - [TCHS] Nannal: Animals deserve basic human rights, discuss
22:19 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I disagree strongly. Human beings are superior, and also my internal instinct to survive inherently causes me to choose us over them.
22:20 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Animals are nice, we can empathise with them.
22:20 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: However, they do not deserve human rights because they are not human.
22:20 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: It is in the name.
22:20 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: They may have some rights, but not human rights.
22:21 - [TCHS] Nannal: Fine, permit me to change to title to "Animals deserve the same right as humans Discuss"
22:21 - [TCHS] Nannal: and upon what grounds can you argue that a human is better than an animal
22:21 - [TCHS] Nannal: Do you not agree that we too are a type of animal
22:21 - [TCHS] Nannal: despite the fact we differentiate ourselves
22:22 - [TCHS] Nannal: and therefore you would need to argue that all animals deserve different rights as they have different ranks
22:22 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Irrelevant. Animal or not, 'Human Rights' refers to our particular species.
22:22 - [TCHS] Nannal: hence the change of title
22:22 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We are superior because of our intellect. Whilst not physically superior on all grounds, I judge our superiority based on our abilities to think, our ability to reason and calculate.
22:23 - [TCHS] Nannal: so someone with a mental disability could be tested upon for a cosmetic or research project?
22:23 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Someone with a mental disability is damaged and is not reflective of the species as a whole.
22:24 - [TCHS] Nannal: but they are an animal as that is what sets us apart from them in your description
22:25 - [TCHS] Nannal: also an intelligent anima (for example a cheetah) is able to reason well enough to take the weakest from a pack of hogs
22:25 - [TCHS] Nannal: *weakest
22:29 - [TCHS] Nannal: are cheetah no longer part of the animal kingdom?
22:29 - [TCHS] Nannal: and at what defining point on an intellectual scale does an animal become a human or vice versa
22:29 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We are a more intelligent animal, however human rights covers our animalistic species as a human.
22:29 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Hence those rights apply to our species and no other.
22:30 - [TCHS] Nannal: Well let’s apply this to animal testing, how smart does an animal have to be before it can feel basic stimulations, for example pain
22:30 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And the line is drawn where they can create, where they can think and communicate with us on a rational level.
22:30 - [TCHS] Nannal: ah
22:31 - [TCHS] Nannal: creation, of tools for example
22:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And with regards to animal testing, first of all, I agree with it with regards to medical things.
22:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And no
22:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Not just tools.
22:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: It must go further.
22:31 - [TCHS] Nannal: well how much so?
22:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Basic tools have been used by certain creatures.
22:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Such as birds for example.
22:31 - [TCHS] Nannal: indeed, my point exactly
22:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: No, this tool must be more specific.
22:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Like the creation of a spear.
22:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Rather than just adapting a stone for use
22:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Something must be created
22:32 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Rather than just calling an object its own and using it
22:32 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: It must create an object, or modify something
22:32 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Rather than merely using it,
22:32 - [TCHS] Nannal: so for example the famous bent stick?
22:33 - [TCHS] Nannal: and bird was given a trait rod, a hold, a basket full of nuts that sat in a tube
22:33 - [TCHS] Nannal: the bird bent the stick in the hole and received the nuts
22:33 - [TCHS] Nannal: is that not creation
22:33 - [TCHS] Nannal: instead of mere adaption
22:33 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I must cut this debate short whilst I get some sugar.
22:33 - [TCHS] Nannal: Feel free
22:34 - [TCHS] Nannal: While you are gone however I'll see if I can find "chips are people too"
22:34 - [TCHS] Nannal: there was a chimp in the program that could communicate with humans by using a set of pictograms
22:42 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I am low, but let me refine my point. All animals can communicate, some more than others. It must be at a certain level.
22:42 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: More than just triangle = food, square = pain
22:42 - [TCHS] Nannal: it was slightly more than that
22:46 - [TCHS] Nannal: anyway it’s not the attempt to classify a chimpanzee for example as a human it's attempting to protect an animal from the pains of testing, from having habitat destroyed for commercial gain and so forth
22:48 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Habitat destroyed for commercial gain I disagree with.
22:48 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Habitat destroyed to keep our species alive, or sustain our species in some IMPORTANT way, and then I agree with it.
22:48 - [TCHS] Nannal: so you agree with putting animals through pain for experimental peruses
22:48 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Animal testing, for non-essential products such as hair spray, I disagree with.
22:48 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: For medical testing, yes.
22:49 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Animals bred for medical testing, to die for medical testing, yes.
22:49 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I stand by that belief, and based on my personal situation, if I had to die to defend such a thing if it ultimately resulted in a cure for a disease such as cancer, I would do so.
22:49 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Because I believe that we as a species are of more worth.
22:49 - [TCHS] Nannal: so why not put yourself up for testing
22:49 - [TCHS] Nannal: we could breed people for testing
22:50 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I would do so, had I the time and knowledge. Not much of this research is conducted in Britain.
22:50 - [TCHS] Nannal: March to Huntington life sciences, put yourself in a cage and have someone with you telling them you can be tested upon
22:51 - [TCHS] Nannal: however you shouldn’t speak yourself
22:51 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You mean couldn't/
22:52 - [TCHS] Nannal: well you could but shouldn’t if you wanted the situation to be fair
22:52 - [TCHS] Nannal: however you don’t because you believe that despite having one common ancestor and that we can both feel, think and experience we are better for your own survival
22:53 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I did not wish the situation to be fair. There is no such thing.
22:53 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: There can be equal values
22:53 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Equal situations in certain ways, perhaps fair exists in that form
22:53 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: But in most things, things such as this for example, no.
22:53 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Let me put it bluntly
22:53 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And do not speak whilst I make my following points.
22:53 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I disagree with animal rights activists.
22:54 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I disagree with them, and everything they stand for. I disagree with their methods (grave robbing, vandalism, acts of terrorism), along with their disregard for the continuation of their own species.
22:54 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Should a global event of significant catastrophic proportions occur
22:55 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And a large portion of humanity dies out
22:55 - [TCHS] Nannal: I'm sorry but you're branding allot of people with the same stick you would brand a minority (with whom the majority disagree)
22:55 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Maybe then you may realise the futility of your actions.
22:55 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Silence. I have not finished.
22:55 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You counter my points before I have defined them all¬!
22:55 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: If you had waited....
22:55 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Now I must bring forward my later point
22:56 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I KNOW there are different levels of supporters. From extremists to those who would say they disagree in an opinion poll.
22:56 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: However, I view things from a survival perspective.
22:56 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: *perspective
22:56 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: In a us or them situation, I choose us, always us, and anyone who refuses to do so may as well have been eliminated via natural selection.
22:57 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: If there were thinkers like you back in the early days of human civilization
22:57 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And it spread
22:57 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We would probably have ceased to exist as a species.
22:57 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And I am a believer that that threat still exists. And will always exist.
22:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And the moment these ideas take hold in mass form, if they do, we are truly doomed.
22:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I cannot convince you.
22:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Nor will I try.
22:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I have stated my points.
22:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And you shall not deter me from my view. I will listen to your points. And I will argue against them.
22:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I will consider them, and dismiss them based on my beliefs.
22:59 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You may now continue.
22:59 - [TCHS] Nannal: then I am to assume I may make my points now
22:59 - [TCHS] Nannal: wonderful
23:10 - [TCHS] Nannal: Firstly you admit that the minority will go to extremes to defend an animal’s right in the same way that they would go to an extreme to defend their own religion which is important and I will return to that ideal later. For now I will look at your idea that there is an us/them divide and ponder upon why you believe there is a struggle, as though an army of non human creatures comes beckoning, if there were ever such a time where an animal wholly unjustified and understanding in that un justification deems itself worthy to take the life of a human, then they may rightfully be slaughtered, however until then there must be reduction as we see with convicts and of cores the same applies for people such as yourself and other who believe in putting creatures through pain for some kind of mundane gain. as for your opinion that if I were in charge of the human race in its primordial stages I simply put forward the idea that I too would have been as brain dead as those I am attempting to protect however if I were capable of a thought at this level I would see that we as humans can survive on food without murder, we can do as I personally have done for the past seven years now (however I not that milk and eggs are still in my diet however I only ate the eggs of the chickens I raised for a long while, until their unfortunate passing but as I had no access to a ethically sound farm I admit to drinking milk from cows now long slaughtered) and in that we could survive as a race most easily, I'm not saying we should give away all our fruit and nuts, simply that we should not over harvest, expand in such a manner that is a threat to the existence of any animal kind, for I would be able to understand the basics of morality in that I do not enjoy pain, I see that is immoral for someone to put me though pain and therefore it would be immoral for me to put an a person through pain, I can also see that animals experience pain and it is not to their liking, and therefore I must conclude that putting an animal through pain is an immoral thin
23:10 - [TCHS] Nannal: g to do
23:12 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I will address your points, however I will add I view the cure of any disease as more than mere 'mundane gain'
23:12 - [TCHS] Nannal: if we were to wait we could simulate the effects
23:12 - [TCHS] Nannal: the mundane gain is time
23:13 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: The human race would not have survived in infancy without killing animals.
23:13 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: That is a fact.
23:14 - [TCHS] Nannal: indeed, however can you not see that we should have switches to living from crops as soon as we understood the basics of farming?
23:14 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: If you expand anyway, you will be threatening or damaging some form of animal kind.
23:14 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: The only way to completely protect and avoid damaging every single animal on this planet, is to remove the human race.
23:16 - [TCHS] Nannal: I don't see how you could prove that in any way that would cause an effect
23:16 - [TCHS] Nannal: if we are still talking about our races infancy then there were bountiful amounts of fruit in the forests, most of it went to waste
23:17 - [TCHS] Nannal: if we expand so far as that we eliminate the waste in a forts then yes expansion from that point onward would cause an animal to go hungry
23:17 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And the inability to tell which was lethal or not, but also, essential aspects of our diet are not in those fruits.
23:17 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Please list your daily diet.
23:20 - [TCHS] Nannal: Fine, for lunch I had a sandwich and a can of coke I haven’t eaten since however I could say that for tea I may have had a tine of baked beans and some toast
23:20 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Processed food.
23:20 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Such things you rely on.
23:21 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You may be able to get sufficient synthesized nutrients to survive.
23:21 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: However, in the past there were no such things.
23:21 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Find me historical evidence of vegetarians/vegans during the dark ages.
23:21 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: There are a reasonable amount of historical records.
23:22 - [TCHS] Nannal: that's not quite how it works; you present evidence you have found that proves your point
23:22 - [TCHS] Nannal: *works
23:23 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: No.
23:24 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I'm saying there's a reason why it did not appear to exist in those days.
23:24 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Because it was detrimental to human survival.
23:24 - [TCHS] Nannal: the idea that we needed to survive upon without supplements we did not have available I see your argument
23:24 - [TCHS] Nannal: however I am simply saying that we are past that
23:24 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I am saying we are not. Because I see the potential that all our technology could be swept away quite easily.
23:24 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Or severely hindered.
23:25 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I am talking of course, about the coming energy crisis.
23:25 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Oh there are some renewable energy sources.
23:25 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: But not nearly enough has been done.
23:25 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We have about ten-twenty years maximum.
23:25 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Upon which our production centres will be hindered beyond belief. Processed food from factories will become scarce.
23:25 - [TCHS] Nannal: we are a supposedly intelligent and enlightened race and yet we still butcher for food and I think if you wait a few hours and then look upward you may just see the source of energy that has powered our entire planet since its very birth
23:25 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: *scarce
23:26 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We are supposedly an intelligent and enlightened race, yet we war with each other, and also apparently ignore coming problems that threaten the survival of the human race.
23:26 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We are flawed.
23:26 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Of course there's the sun!
23:27 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: But there's not nearly enough resources expended in harnessing it!
23:27 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Some people may have solar panels on their roves
23:27 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: But it is not enough.
23:27 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We may have a few streets powered by wind turbines
23:27 - [TCHS] Nannal: and in the time we have (more like fifty years but go on as you were) we will have expanded in such a way we will be able to harness its energy
23:27 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: It is not enough.
23:27 - [TCHS] Nannal: more effectively than we already can
23:28 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: No, ten-twenty years until the structure of society we have come to know shuts down.
23:28 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Reason being, that I put ten-twenty years before resources start to be hoarded.
23:28 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: People are not going to wait until it all runs dry.
23:28 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: No, they will start to hoarded. There will be war.
23:30 - [TCHS] Nannal: so your justification for disallowing animal’s basic human rights is that people act like animals.
23:30 - [TCHS] Nannal: and your argument against stopping killing is that we needed to kill before
23:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You've missed my point.
23:31 - [TCHS] Nannal: well apparently so as it seemed to make little sense the first time
23:31 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We are animals. We kill to survive. Animals kill each other. There will always be war between them. Until we evolve beyond our own conflict within our species, we will never ever be able to prevent ourselves from needing to kill animals.
23:32 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Either out of spite, research, testing, or food.
23:32 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We are a separate species. We have our rights between ourselves
23:32 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: *ourselves.
23:32 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: *ourselves
23:32 - [TCHS] Nannal: and I am therefore no long human, I partake in no war and strive to live a life without killing
23:33 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Wrong.
23:33 - [TCHS] Nannal: *no longer
23:33 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You are flawed because you have failed to unite humanity.
23:33 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: One person's view is not enough.
23:33 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: 100 is not enough
23:33 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: 1000 is not enough
23:33 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You need everyone.
23:33 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You need to think collectively.
23:33 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We have yet to reach that next step in our evolution
23:34 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: When this globe is home to a united human race, we will be able to accomplish
23:34 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We will no doubt substitute animals in medical testing for cloned organic constructs, only alive in the sense it is organic material, not an animal, nothing, it does not even think.
23:34 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We can accomplish food that no longer needs animals.
23:34 - [TCHS] Nannal: so why not begin that by telling the world around you that killing is fundamentally wrong
23:35 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We can expand into space, where there are no creatures. We can work on techniques to cooperate with the environment, and not damage it as we expand.
23:35 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: That day will be a joyful one.
23:35 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: But not within my lifetime.
23:36 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Because it doesn't work like that.
23:36 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You see
23:36 - [TCHS] Nannal: so we are together in thought, we must stop fighting amongst ourselves, we must look into ways of synthesizing organic matter to test upon and we must find a new place to expand into
23:36 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: The only way you can begin, it's not about one person telling something.
23:36 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Exactly.
23:36 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: However
23:36 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: It's not going to work without revolution on a global scale.
23:36 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: The only way we can feel truly united.
23:36 - [TCHS] Nannal: WHAT?
23:36 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Our current sociological structure is flawed. It works, but it could be better.
23:36 - [TCHS] Nannal: hang on
23:36 - [TCHS] Nannal: stop typing
23:36 - [TCHS] Nannal: thank you, right
23:37 - [TCHS] Nannal: You say we must do these things, and then say that you don’t need to take part in doing this because nobody else is
23:37 - [TCHS] Nannal: revolution is not instant
23:37 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Wrong.
23:37 - [TCHS] Nannal: no, right
23:37 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Listen
23:37 - [TCHS] Nannal: it takes one man to spread an idea
23:38 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Not wrong about revolution is instant.
23:38 - [TCHS] Nannal: oak then I shall stop
23:38 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: One man, right, you want to know why my friend's conspiracy theories do not get listened to by everyone.
23:38 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: In truth, people only listen to the man on his soap box, when they have no one else to turn to.
23:38 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: When all hope is gone,
23:38 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: lost
23:39 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Right now, in the modern world, most people in our 'developed' countries do not care.
23:39 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: They do not care about the wrongs of society.
23:39 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: They go on with living their lives. Working, sleeping, eating, and relaxing.
23:39 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: In general.
23:39 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: There is no reason for more than a set number to listen.
23:39 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: The majority will not 'awaken'.
23:39 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Awakening is a term used by my conspiracy friend.
23:40 - [TCHS] Nannal: may I speak quickly?
23:40 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: To define when society becomes aware of the NWO, he says.
23:40 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Yes.
23:41 - [TCHS] Nannal: thank you, you understand that I am right in my views however you are refusing to change and help others understand and change because nobody else is changing and helping others to understand and change
23:41 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Wrong.
23:41 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Your views reflect in part a Utopian future society.
23:41 - [TCHS] Nannal: that I am suggesting we make today yes
23:41 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And I do agree, in a better future, these would work. But our species is not evolved enough.
23:42 - [TCHS] Nannal: *begin making
23:42 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: It will not work.
23:42 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You need to change the world.
23:42 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: How do you propose changing the world, Nannal?>
23:42 - [TCHS] Nannal: Well firstly we convince people we are correct, argue them into the corner and show them how right we are
23:42 - [TCHS] Nannal: we educate them
23:43 - [TCHS] Nannal: and we let them educate others
23:43 - [TCHS] Nannal: the idea spreads as ideas do
23:43 - [TCHS] Nannal: the world changes of a period of time
23:43 - [TCHS] Nannal: we eventually have the idea that hurting things is a bad thing to do
23:43 - [TCHS] Nannal: and that ideal is universal
23:44 - [TCHS] Nannal: however you still seem to be arguing that it is right to kill things because we can’t stop anyone else doing it
23:45 - [TCHS] Nannal: anyway from there we have a race of moral people
23:45 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Wrong.
23:45 - [TCHS] Nannal: go on
23:45 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: My argument is that people still kill animals because animals will kill animals. Until we evolve beyond killing animals, we will continue to kill them.
23:45 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: HOWEVER
23:45 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Whilst there is a need to change, it is not instant.
23:45 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: In addition, your view of humanity as a way for spreading your idea is utopian, and thus flawed.
23:46 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: People have been trying to spread certain ideas globally for years.
23:46 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Centuries.
23:46 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: No one cares.
23:46 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: No one will care.
23:46 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: No one will care, until something major happens.
23:46 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Something to wake them up, something huge. That something is quite literally uniting the world, and controlling it and leading it forth. This is also a partially utopian aspect.
23:47 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: But possible.
23:47 - [TCHS] Nannal: may I
23:47 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: You may.
23:51 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: However if you are typing up another wall of text, try to break it down to make it a bit easier to read, it's getting late, and I should have been in bed hours ago.
23:51 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Normally I would not ask that, however, lateness is resulting in a lack of concentration...
23:52 - [TCHS] Nannal: Thank you, you are completely an utterly denying your personal responsibility stating that you need to eve love, that is an our right lie and you know it, unless of course I am better than you and if so then might I add that I shall be going met hunting and perhaps tomorrow I shall have met chops with a side of salad
23:52 - [TCHS] Nannal: you could if you wanted right now denounce yourself as an omnivore, very easily
23:52 - [TCHS] Nannal: you have no need to partake of meat, there is no big change needed
23:53 - [TCHS] Nannal: to change everyone would be a big change but everyone is a collective made of people
23:53 - [TCHS] Nannal: and to change a person is not particularly difficult
23:53 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: We need protein for one thing.
23:53 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And it is not one person, it is the whole world!
23:53 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: THINK MAN!
23:54 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Ideas do not proliferate around more than a certain number of people, depending on the idea.
23:54 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: The idea behind being a vegetarian, etcetera, has been around for a while now.
23:54 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: It has proliferated, but if it was going to be globally adopted by the species, this would have happened by now.
23:55 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: IN ADDTION, you ignore third world nations.
23:55 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: To go vegetarian in their current state would be suicide.
23:55 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And modern methods for helping them are not successful.
23:55 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: There is not enough help, and it is the wrong kind.
23:55 - [TCHS] Nannal: well if you propose I draft an action plan do say so
[TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ is now Offline.
Your state is set to Offline.
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[TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ is now online.
23:57 - [TCHS] Nannal: was that me or you?
23:57 - [TCHS] Nannal: or perhaps both
23:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Steam.
23:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And I know the draft plan of action I would take.
23:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: However you are welcome to tell me yours.
23:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: In brief.
23:58 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Just a few sentence.
23:59 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: *sentences
07 November 2009
00:00 - [TCHS] Nannal: well firstly we would be saving huge amounts of money in not killing animals, this can go into sending over seeds and farming implements however I admit this will be no overnight thing and we must work towards it I am simply saying, you are able why aren't you as a person?
00:00 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: No!
00:00 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: The plan of action!
00:00 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Not the reasoning!
00:01 - [TCHS] Nannal: okay, the plan of action
00:01 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And your brief mention with regard to what I assume is third world countries, although you don't make it clear, is as flawed as modern policies.
00:01 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: It is too little
00:01 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: *too little
00:01 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Too slow, and so open to complete failure and error.
00:04 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Post a thread on it.
00:04 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I'm off to bed.
00:04 - [TCHS] Nannal: Okay fine, you mind me posting this?
00:04 - [TCHS] Nannal: I'll clear up the spelling
00:04 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: The entire conversation?
00:04 - [TCHS] Nannal: indeed
00:04 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: No need to clear up spelling
00:05 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Post it all as is.
00:05 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: There's a lot, no one will care for it, and very few will read it all.
00:05 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: But on the forum I shall continue my debate.
00:05 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I will summarise however.
00:05 - [TCHS] Nannal: Okay
00:05 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I support the killing of animals, as a survival imperative. In our food, for medical purposes, for survival.
00:06 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: If we had the ability to survive completely by avoiding this, then yes, it is a good idea. However a sufficient substitute would have to be found, for example people enjoy the taste of meat. Hence science could concoct genetically created pork, taken from no animal
00:06 - [TCHS] Nannal: and I respectfully state we needed kill for or medical testing allowing time for change
00:06 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: But it is genetically the same flesh as a pig.
00:06 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Thus you are eating meat
00:06 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: But no animal was harmed.
00:07 - [TCHS] Nannal: then that is fine with me
00:07 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Exactly.
00:07 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: However, our technology is insufficient.
00:07 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: As is our development as a species.
00:07 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Global unity and technological advance are needed.
00:07 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Don't get me wrong
00:07 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I do not support killing for the sake of it.
00:08 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I support it as a matter of survival.
00:08 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: If survival could be SUFFICIENTLY FOR THE WHOLE WORLD sustained, and what I said above, man-made meats, etcetera.....
00:08 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: It's possible; I don't think it will happen in our life time.
00:08 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Not unless someone accelerated the process.
00:09 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: In my opinion, the first step would be to attain global unity.
00:09 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Once this had happened, you have the resources of a world, not a nation, united.
00:09 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Technology would advance faster ultimately, in my opinion.
00:09 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: However, it would not be instant.
00:10 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: First, all countries would have to be brought to a technological equilibrium by the leadership.
00:10 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: This would be a monumental task.
00:10 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: And this actually leads on to my political theories, but I digress
00:10 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: I'm not about to discuss those, they are private.
00:10 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: My views are not private, my theories are.
00:10 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Anyway, I must be off,
00:10 - [TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ: Good night.
00:11 - [TCHS] Nannal: Take care
[TCHS] Mєτ®Iτцτцѕ is now Offline.

22:18 : Animals deserve basic human rights, discuss
22:19 - I disagree strongly.
22:20 - However, they do not deserve human rights because they are not human.
22:49 - Animals bred for medical testing, to die for medical testing, yes.
22:53 - I disagree with animal rights activists.
23:30 : so your justification for disallowing animal’s basic human rights is that people act like animals. Animals kill each other.
23:34 - We can accomplish food that no longer needs animals.
23:45 : go on
23:45 - My argument is that people still kill animals because animals will kill animals.
00:05 : Okay
00:05 - I support the killing of animals, as a survival imperative.

I like meat, I will eat meat.

I think it’s very immoral

the the fact of the matter is that you have a choice.