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 Post Post subject: Re: Fuel!
 
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I don't think rear wheel steering would make much difference, as it wouldn't affect the axis of rotation, CoG or the moment of the entire bike.

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:28 pm 
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 Post Post subject: Re: Fuel!
 
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But it would affect where the point of rotation is, it would be much further back because you are basically forcing the nose of the vehicle into the end, as opposed to pulling the vehicle through it...

:/ xD This is so random

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:30 pm 
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Different axis of rotation, I'm on about the axis of rotation that causes the vehicle to "lift" and not the one that causes it to turn.

If you really want, I could create a fairly detailed mechanics breakdown of it, but I cba unless someone really wants to read it ><

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:34 pm 
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 Post Post subject: Re: Fuel!
 
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Oh, we are arguing about different things xD

I just thought that as the moment of TURNING (ie L/R) would be further back, it would be less likely to roll, as having the CoG further back makes something more stable O_o

Though... the CoG would only be more backward... wait >.<

I owned myself....

Under braking the CoG would move forwards anyway, away from the "steering" wheel. Its probably quite likely to roll at any decent speed regardless, unless the CoG was lower than the height of the wheels xD

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:38 pm 
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The CoG will never move by definition, though I really should be calling it the CoM (Centre of Mass), they're the same thing, but CoM is semantically more correct. It will only move if you change the weight distribution.

Also, having the CoM further back shouldn't affect rolling in a rectangular based car (in a simple model atleast, there may be some other consequences of doing it, but they can usually be ignored on the large scale). Infact, moving the CoM back on a reverse trike would actually make it more susceptible to rolling.

I'm going to write up that mechanics post now, just cos I can and now I feel like it ><

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:47 pm 
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But in a real world situation, the mass of the car would move foward on the suspension, and probably roll it over anyway.... :/ Yeah xD Either way its not very stable... A trike the other way round is much the better option, if not as cool looking :P

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:52 pm 
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Well, yes, it would, but not a significant amount relative to the front of the vehicle, the only change in mass distribution is the moving of the wheel setup.

I thought we were on about rolling to the side when going round a corner, though?

Also, both trikes should be similarly stable, assuming a direct mirror of mass distributions.

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 3:56 pm 
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Well, not really, a one front 2 back trike would be far more stable in a corner, if a lot worse at turning in.

It wouldnt bite as you turned in (due to having half as much grip, assuming the tyre sizes/treads were the same), but it would carry the line better, as there wouldnt be as much roll, and you would have better drive because it would be loading up the outside rear tyre.

I guess it would also depend on what wheels are being driven, I was assuming in my examples that the sterring/power were not coming from the same end. A "FF" trike with two wheels at the front could be stable into a corner, but would still lean outwards a great deal at the apex. The Opposte "RR" (I am assuming both driven wheels to be mounted with the engine) Generally be a more stable, but less manouvberable platform.

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:14 pm 
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I hope more game content come out soon so that we can get off this realism topic.

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 4:22 pm 
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WARNING: The following spoiler contains a lot of Alevel/Univeristy Mechanics. It does not explain a lot of the concepts involved and assumes a decent understanding of both maths and mechanics. It shouldn't be too difficult for anyone who's done Alevel mech and has some knowledge of vectors. There is a lot of circular motion. I also can't guarantee it is right, I may have missed something important.

Spoiler for Here we go:
First, I want to point out some of the things I will be using and how I will be notating.
Bold indicates that the unit given is a Euclidean vector.
i, j, k represent unit vectors in the x, y and z axis, respectively.
^ indicates a vector cross product (Powers are written in superscript).
Subscript denotes the part of a vector, IE, Fx would be the force in the x direction.
|symbol| indicates a magnitude.

Lets assume the trike can be represented as a simple triangular prism with the wheels at each edge. It has a mass m and is travelling at velocity v in a circle of radius R. For mathematical simplicity the centre of mass is located halfway along the centre line and halfway up.
Attachment:
lolmech1.jpg

The axis of rotation in this case is given by the red line. The coordinate axis have been defined as along the axis (z), parallel to the floor and perpendicular to the axis (x) and perpendicular to both (y). As a note, I have defined the CoM as l from the back along the centre line and h from the floor, the actual vehicle can be any size, such as 72l and 65h instead of 2l and 2h, all we are concerned with is the CoM, it's just easier to visualise if it's about centred.

Friction is assumed to be "infinite" in the x direction so that the vehicle does not slide (infact, it doesn't need to be infinite, just equal to or greater than the centripetal force).

First, we get the magnitude of the centripetal force, using the formula for circular motion;

|F|=mv2/R

This force is pretty useless to us, as we don't know how it behaves in our coordinate axis system. This force acts perpendicular to our centre line, which is at Θo to our z axis, and parallel to the floor. This gives;

F=(mv2/R)cosΘi+(mv2/R)sinΘk

As we are dealing with stuff rotating around z, we can ignore the k component that acts along z. This allows us to simplify to;

|Fx|=(mv2/R)cosΘ

While this is generally considered the inward force required to create such a circular motion, you can also view it as a force exerted outwards on the system. Of course, this force acts upon the centre of mass.

Using this force with the equation for torque (τ=r^F, where r is the radius from the centre of motion) we can find the rotational force (torque) exerted on the trike by the turning.

By virtue of the cross product, it turns out that it doesn't matter how far away the CoM is laterally, only vertically. This gives;

|τCW|=(mv2/R)hcosΘ

Now we need to know the torque due to gravity, which is calculated in a similar way. First we work out the force due to gravity;

F=mg

The direction of g (and therefore F) is directly down, IE -j.

The distance r in this case is found using simple trig to be lsinΘi.

This gives us a torque;

|τCCW|=mglsinΘ

Now, whether the vehicle will roll or not is simply a matter of which torque is greater, it will roll when;

|τCCW|<|τCW|

Which can also be written as;

mglsinΘ<(mv2/R)hcosΘ

Interestingly enough, the masses cancel in this. While this may seem wrong due to common sense, it isn't. In actual fact, changing the mass changes the moment of inertia of the vehicle. This means that while a heavier vehicle will just as likely roll, it will take a lot longer to do so as it accelerates slower. If we move everything to one side, we can see that it will roll if;

(Rgl/hv2)tanΘ<1

This means that decreasing R, g, l and Θ makes it more likely to roll, while increasing h and v does the same. Bear in mind that Θ=0 is the equivalent of a bike, not a car. A car would need a similar approach to the above, but would yeild a result based on its width and not the front/rear placement of the CoM.

It's also worth noting that having the vehicle the other way round will yeild exactly the same result, so neither way round is more stable than the other, until you start taking into account where acceleration of the vehicle is applied, but those are inconsequential for a basic model of cornering. Also, suddenly turning into a corner would cause some other forces to start acting, which would also change thing, but in a smooth turn in, these would be negligible.

Hope you enjoyed that and I apologise for any errors, I cba to check it over :P


P.S. Kyhas - Heh, too late, I was already writing this :D

EDIT: FIXED a slight error in the very last bit, I put h in the wrong place.


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Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:15 pm 
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 Post Post subject: Re: Fuel!
 
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Skillers wrote:
WARNING: The following spoiler contains a lot of Alevel/Univeristy Mechanics. It does not explain a lot of the concepts involved and assumes a decent understanding of both maths and mechanics. It shouldn't be too difficult for anyone who's done Alevel mech and has some knowledge of vectors. There is a lot of circular motion. I also can't guarantee it is right, I may have missed something important.

Spoiler for Here we go:
First, I want to point out some of the things I will be using and how I will be notating.
Bold indicates that the unit given is a Euclidean vector.
i, j, k represent unit vectors in the x, y and z axis, respectively.
^ indicates a vector cross product (Powers are written in superscript).
Subscript denotes the part of a vector, IE, Fx would be the force in the x direction.
|symbol| indicates a magnitude.

Lets assume the trike can be represented as a simple triangular prism with the wheels at each edge. It has a mass m and is travelling at velocity v in a circle of radius R. For mathematical simplicity the centre of mass is located halfway along the centre line and halfway up.
Attachment:
lolmech1.jpg

The axis of rotation in this case is given by the red line. The coordinate axis have been defined as along the axis (z), parallel to the floor and perpendicular to the axis (x) and perpendicular to both (y). As a note, I have defined the CoM as l from the back along the centre line and h from the floor, the actual vehicle can be any size, such as 72l and 65h instead of 2l and 2h, all we are concerned with is the CoM, it's just easier to visualise if it's about centred.

Friction is assumed to be "infinite" in the x direction so that the vehicle does not slide (infact, it doesn't need to be infinite, just equal to or greater than the centripetal force).

First, we get the magnitude of the centripetal force, using the formula for circular motion;

|F|=mv2/R

This force is pretty useless to us, as we don't know how it behaves in our coordinate axis system. This force acts perpendicular to our centre line, which is at Θo to our z axis, and parallel to the floor. This gives;

F=(mv2/R)cosΘi+(mv2/R)sinΘk

As we are dealing with stuff rotating around z, we can ignore the k component that acts along z. This allows us to simplify to;

|Fx|=(mv2/R)cosΘ

While this is generally considered the inward force required to create such a circular motion, you can also view it as a force exerted outwards on the system. Of course, this force acts upon the centre of mass.

Using this force with the equation for torque (τ=r^F, where r is the radius from the centre of motion) we can find the rotational force (torque) exerted on the trike by the turning.

By virtue of the cross product, it turns out that it doesn't matter how far away the CoM is laterally, only vertically. This gives;

|τCW|=(mv2/R)hcosΘ

Now we need to know the torque due to gravity, which is calculated in a similar way. First we work out the force due to gravity;

F=mg

The direction of g (and therefore F) is directly down, IE -j.

The distance r in this case is found using simple trig to be lsinΘi.

This gives us a torque;

|τCCW|=mglsinΘ

Now, whether the vehicle will roll or not is simply a matter of which torque is greater, it will roll when;

|τCCW|<|τCW|

Which can also be written as;

mglsinΘ<(mv2/R)hcosΘ

Interestingly enough, the masses cancel in this. While this may seem wrong due to common sense, it isn't. In actual fact, changing the mass changes the moment of inertia of the vehicle. This means that while a heavier vehicle will just as likely roll, it will take a lot longer to do so as it accelerates slower. If we move everything to one side, we can see that it will roll if;

(Rghl/v2)tanΘ<1

This means that decreasing R, g, h, l and Θ makes it more likely to roll, while increasing v does the same. Bear in mind that Θ=0 is the equivalent of a bike, not a car. A car would need a similar approach to the above, but would yeild a result based on its width and not the front/rear placement of the CoM.

It's also worth noting that having the vehicle the other way round will yeild exactly the same result, so neither way round is more stable than the other, until you start taking into account where acceleration of the vehicle is applied, but those are inconsequential for a basic model of cornering. Also, suddenly turning into a corner would cause some other forces to start acting, which would also change thing, but in a smooth turn in, these would be negligible.

Hope you enjoyed that and I apologise for any errors, I cba to check it over :P


P.S. Kyhas - Heh, too late, I was already writing this :D



Needs more pictures.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLO

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:20 pm 
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Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:23 pm 
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Skillers wrote:
WARNING: The following spoiler contains a lot of Alevel/Univeristy Mechanics. It does not explain a lot of the concepts involved and assumes a decent understanding of both maths and mechanics. It shouldn't be too difficult for anyone who's done Alevel mech and has some knowledge of vectors. There is a lot of circular motion. I also can't guarantee it is right, I may have missed something important.

Spoiler for Here we go:
First, I want to point out some of the things I will be using and how I will be notating.
Bold indicates that the unit given is a Euclidean vector.
i, j, k represent unit vectors in the x, y and z axis, respectively.
^ indicates a vector cross product (Powers are written in superscript).
Subscript denotes the part of a vector, IE, Fx would be the force in the x direction.
|symbol| indicates a magnitude.

Lets assume the trike can be represented as a simple triangular prism with the wheels at each edge. It has a mass m and is travelling at velocity v in a circle of radius R. For mathematical simplicity the centre of mass is located halfway along the centre line and halfway up.
Attachment:
lolmech1.jpg

The axis of rotation in this case is given by the red line. The coordinate axis have been defined as along the axis (z), parallel to the floor and perpendicular to the axis (x) and perpendicular to both (y). As a note, I have defined the CoM as l from the back along the centre line and h from the floor, the actual vehicle can be any size, such as 72l and 65h instead of 2l and 2h, all we are concerned with is the CoM, it's just easier to visualise if it's about centred.

Friction is assumed to be "infinite" in the x direction so that the vehicle does not slide (infact, it doesn't need to be infinite, just equal to or greater than the centripetal force).

First, we get the magnitude of the centripetal force, using the formula for circular motion;

|F|=mv2/R

This force is pretty useless to us, as we don't know how it behaves in our coordinate axis system. This force acts perpendicular to our centre line, which is at Θo to our z axis, and parallel to the floor. This gives;

F=(mv2/R)cosΘi+(mv2/R)sinΘk

As we are dealing with stuff rotating around z, we can ignore the k component that acts along z. This allows us to simplify to;

|Fx|=(mv2/R)cosΘ

While this is generally considered the inward force required to create such a circular motion, you can also view it as a force exerted outwards on the system. Of course, this force acts upon the centre of mass.

Using this force with the equation for torque (τ=r^F, where r is the radius from the centre of motion) we can find the rotational force (torque) exerted on the trike by the turning.

By virtue of the cross product, it turns out that it doesn't matter how far away the CoM is laterally, only vertically. This gives;

|τCW|=(mv2/R)hcosΘ

Now we need to know the torque due to gravity, which is calculated in a similar way. First we work out the force due to gravity;

F=mg

The direction of g (and therefore F) is directly down, IE -j.

The distance r in this case is found using simple trig to be lsinΘi.

This gives us a torque;

|τCCW|=mglsinΘ

Now, whether the vehicle will roll or not is simply a matter of which torque is greater, it will roll when;

|τCCW|<|τCW|

Which can also be written as;

mglsinΘ<(mv2/R)hcosΘ

Interestingly enough, the masses cancel in this. While this may seem wrong due to common sense, it isn't. In actual fact, changing the mass changes the moment of inertia of the vehicle. This means that while a heavier vehicle will just as likely roll, it will take a lot longer to do so as it accelerates slower. If we move everything to one side, we can see that it will roll if;

(Rgl/hv2)tanΘ<1

This means that decreasing R, g, l and Θ makes it more likely to roll, while increasing h and v does the same. Bear in mind that Θ=0 is the equivalent of a bike, not a car. A car would need a similar approach to the above, but would yeild a result based on its width and not the front/rear placement of the CoM.

It's also worth noting that having the vehicle the other way round will yeild exactly the same result, so neither way round is more stable than the other, until you start taking into account where acceleration of the vehicle is applied, but those are inconsequential for a basic model of cornering. Also, suddenly turning into a corner would cause some other forces to start acting, which would also change thing, but in a smooth turn in, these would be negligible.

Hope you enjoyed that and I apologise for any errors, I cba to check it over :P


P.S. Kyhas - Heh, too late, I was already writing this :D

EDIT: FIXED a slight error in the very last bit, I put h in the wrong place.



This is the most epically win post on Techious. ^^ Thanks Skillers, awesome read :P

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 5:52 pm 
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Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:18 pm 
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Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:19 pm 
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This seems a semi-arcade game. It's definitely got pretty good physics from what I see.

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:21 pm 
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yeh. but just think about Need for speed with a GTR2 Like Physic engine xD

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:41 pm 
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I haven't played those games.

Anyway, there's a difference between physics (stuff that makes the cars go, jump around, roll etc) and damage model. The former is good in an arcade game, it doesn't get in the way of the fun, and can add to it. The latter can be destructive to fun gameplay in an arcade game if overdone.

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Wed Apr 29, 2009 11:59 pm 
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yeh. I think in the videos weve seen wasnt the car demolition activated. this will be fn too :)

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Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:00 am 
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Yeah, this game needs a simple car damage model, IMO. Nothing too advanced and serious like you get on the realism racers, just something that makes things explode and crash.

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Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:07 am 
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there is a Damage Model. just not finished yet

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Thu Apr 30, 2009 12:53 am 
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Skillers wrote:
Yeah, this game needs a simple car damage model, IMO. Nothing too advanced and serious like you get on the realism racers, just something that makes things explode and crash.


Well, its based on the GRiD engine, so the damage model will be okay.

Which means itll also be quite arcadey in how it plays I think. GRiD's damage model was cool, you could have a quite decent knock and bend some body panels but do much serious damage, and even in a violent accident (that wasnt deemed race ending) you could limp around with 3 wheels xD

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Thu Apr 30, 2009 9:44 am 
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pfft 2 whels on the trike? :P

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Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:33 am 
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Depends on which wheel falls off :P

You wouldnt be able to carry on with a one wheeled motorbike :/

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Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:37 am 
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lol xD i dont think you will lose wheels on a trike or motorbike xD

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Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:41 am 
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